0:08
Welcome Abbey and Cassidy.
0:13
I'm so excited. You're here. Um, so for those who don't know, you tell, tell my audience just a little bit about yourselves. And I always think it's really fun when I have two guests to maybe have you tell the audience about the other person. Oh.
0:35
I like that. Okay, so, first, I'll go first, and I'll speak about Cassidy. This is thrilling. I'm gonna forgotten this one. Okay, so Cassidy is in her grad programme right now at NYU. And, um, we met we met at UT. I know that's kind of about me. And she called me about me, sorry. She called me with the idea for the podcast that we currently run Broadway bullshit. I think an admirable quality of Cassidy's is that she's always been very community oriented in the theatre that she creates. She wants to make sure that the people in her life feel loved and that those around her like, feel safe. And the theatre that she's been in, in a theatre that I've been in, that most of us been in has not always made us feel that way. And so when she called me with this idea, I was like, Yeah, this is exactly what me and Cassidy should be talking about is how to make theatre something that brings joy back to us because she inspires so much joy. I know Cassie is also kind of got her life together.
1:43
Not feeling that way. Thank you very Hi. Avi is the definition of a multi hyphenate out here left me at UT went to USC, um, and experienced their performance and scenic painting and tech design, went on to do scenic painting professionally for a little bit, and is continuing to venture on and that multi hyphenate discovery right now working on set for some undisclosed TV shows. And happy was always the perfect partner for this. So it wasn't like let me really wrack my brain about who I should do this with it was it screamed out to me and Abbey really has a mind that I think is so interesting in the way that they view things in the way that they think in the way in a director's mind and in a personal and interpersonal world mind and it? I don't know, it makes us great collaborators, and I appreciate their friendship even more.
2:44
Yeah, that's sweet. Doesn't that feel good? I mean, are we allowed to cuss on this? Yeah, you can go. Great question.
2:56
What I what I find really fascinating about both of you is you're young. And you've been very ambitious and in speaking out. And I think that's what's really remarkable to me. I feel like most people entering the world of professional anything that you know, as they started to venture out into that want really want to play it safe. They want to feel like they need to learn the ropes and get experience before they make a statement right before they feel like it's a safe place for them to do that. And I think it's really remarkable that you saw a problem and weren't afraid to to create a space in which you speak up about it. And I'm afraid. Okay, so talk about we tell the audience because you didn't mention Broadway bullshit as your podcast? What is the purpose of your podcast? What are you hoping that this will generate? Or do not necessarily just for you, but for the community as a whole?
4:07
Yeah, so we started this journey with our fancy busline of like reforming the industry via reforming the canon. And I think these older mutes so we would, once a week, review a musical and decide if it should fly, die or retry in the current age, which adds some comedy to it while also assessing it through a lens of social progress and activism. And what does the story say now versus what it said then? And I think that platform allowed us to, it didn't feel like we were marching to the doors of big Broadway agents and saying you're doing it wrong, because we were able to take the shows that were written so long ago or some of them written very recently, we weren't only looking at Golden Age. And I think this podcast has progressed now that we just want to have more conversations with people in the industry, and with people in this world. And what their what their envisioned change is because, yeah, it's happening in small steps. Some might say it's not happening at all others may say, and we, yeah, my my fancy cover letter line right now is like it is theatre that was my first love and is theatre that I want to be on the frontlines for making a better world. And I think this podcast really reflects that, honestly.
5:25
So we look up on your cover letter that probably Holy crap. Yeah, that's definitely an eye. And I also got into it for selfish reasons, because it was an opportunity to talk about theatre again, once a week during the middle of night with somebody whose opinion of theatre that I actually gave a shit about. Like, Cassidy and I always say stuff. And I'm like, Yeah, that's Yeah. Same talk about that. Because especially I remember early on Cassie, and I would have to text after we recorded episodes. And be like, did we like that? We said that to be like that. We said that because it's, it's beyond the fact of like, we're 20 Somethings with pretty little experience in the industry. And we have only heard so many horror stories, and you can only hear so many horror stories before you get a little freaked out. It's weird putting your own voice out there when you haven't ever done something like that, in this way. And we got attention, which was weird. And every now and then I still have to cap Tex Cassidy. And I'm like, what about this that I said that that that sounds wrong. Did I mention somebody named like, there is an anxiety that does live with it. But it's like managing it. And I think remembering that at the end of the day, like I have I have good intentions. And that's all I can do. And if I screw it up, all I can do is try and course correct after the fact like and breathing on that. But fear does exist.
6:58
I tried to send her on like, is it truthful? Is it informed and pass that then you could just kind of have to let it go into the ether and I've become more okay with that. I will share that we roasted living. Oh God out of dear Evan Hanson and I now work for the feeder that like started it. So. But I don't know about my podcast. Um, you think they don't know? Very true. I, I went on an interview once where someone had like, Googled me and it was, I was like, looking for a day job. They were like, so we found your podcast. Oh, alright. Hello,
7:33
this,
7:35
because this podcast began in October of 2020, which is hard to believe that we've been in a podcast and in a pandemic, this log. I think to um, we get some hot takes emailed to us people are really defensive of their favourite stories. And that makes sense to me. I'm really defensive of my favourite stories. We get less people angry about what we've said about the industry, which is like, great. Hope
8:04
to argue against that. Right? Yeah. That's harder to argue against because there's facts right. You know, stories are made up most of the time. So yeah.
8:16
Another fun thing about the podcast that qualms by anxieties and another fun fact about Cassidy is she hates poop humour, and I get her to make poop jokes on the podcast. So honestly,
8:28
we really
8:31
go ahead make our longest Cassie makes poop jokes you have succeeded. Yeah.
8:37
It really has been nice to just create this safe, artistic but also just really comedic space. Africanized friendship really existed early on of riffing on each other, and just messing around and doing funny bits. And so to let that live in this space, where it's kind of welcomed and, and enjoyed by others, like we do get very good compliments on it. So it's, it's just nice to have that space and to be able to be goofy with it at the same time.
9:05
So you started this podcast October 2020. What were the challenges you felt in getting it off the grounds? Yeah, just start there. Tell me what were the challenges and just figuring it out and getting a going.
9:21
For one, I didn't know how to edit a podcast. And so I there was this one day that I spent, I just like really hyperfocus and it was like 13 hours of my day, I sat watching videos, figuring some shit out, figuring out what to say to Cassidy it to like guide us through this whole process like that side of the process. That was a huge learning curve. That continued to be a problem, frankly, until we got Varun frankly until we got our guide that does it for us shout
9:55
out to Rouen
9:57
always not always obvious given themselves ample credit. But even more so Abby wasn't producing episodes that sounded bad in any way Abby learned and mastered this trade, it may or may have been more complicated on their end, to piece it all together. But every time I listen, I'm always like, Oh, this audio quality. But we really, we really started as the two of us. I'm recording on Apple headphones until we decided to splurge for the better equipment. And figuring this out truly from the bottom. I was at a job I didn't like where I didn't do too much during the day. And I just spent that time figuring out okay, we need a website. Let's build it. Okay, let's do this. My childhood friend, Sarah, little cert, came on board and did all of our graphics, all of our social media, I was really moved by how a friend who knew and like grew up with theatre, but mainly liked it because of me was like, Alright, I'm here, let's go. I'm on board. Let's make this happen. And we've really had a lot of kind friends and community members step up to do the same. And that's moving and excited.
10:59
Isn't that amazing how that happens. I think that a lot of people who have an idea because I have a lot of listeners who aren't just theatre fans, right? So they have an idea, they want to get a podcast, or they want to start a YouTube channel, or they want to create something a platform. And the hardest part is just getting started. It's just, it's just allowing yourself to start messy start with just Apple headphones, and be okay with that. Right. Yeah.
11:25
And that as an artist holds me back a lot. I think I was proud of the way that I was able to just jump in and say, okay, it will be what it will because I I think a lot of artists house a lot of ideas in their brain and creatives and say, Okay, I have this, but what's really going to come of it? Or how would I really do this? Or who would really listen. And we had all of those things and kind of forged ahead. And we're like, oh my gosh, people who aren't just our parents and our close friends are listening. And this is becoming a thing and we're getting traction. So I think yeah, I think doing it and understanding that it's not going to be the perfect product round one. And that's okay.
12:05
Yeah, I think that was the the only way that our podcasts actually survived is every time we had a problem. And like we couldn't make a release date or something. We decided to just call it like, it was like, I remember one time in the first season, we got tired. And we didn't want to record because we weren't very funny, because we were tired from being people on top holding this random podcast. And we just posted we were like, we're tired. We'll be back next week. Thank you. Yeah. And like, that's just how we run this podcast. And it works for us. And I think that's helped us be able to continue to create it.
12:39
How many downloads? are you at now? Do you know?
12:42
That's a great question. I think the last time I checked, it's around 3000.
12:48
That's amazing. Yeah.
12:50
Which is great. Every, every time we check the numbers, I'm I don't know. It's it's exciting that people are on this journey with us. It does feel like that. Even though I have you know that Abby and I have our strong connection and stand as CO hosts like it really has evolved to feel like a community amongst the people who listen and interact with us on social media and send us funny stuff, which is great.
13:13
So what is your hope? Like? What are you hoping that you'll be able to affect within the industry? With this?
13:21
I think, especially since we started with musicals, we were at first attempting just a new level of consciousness when engaging with this art, a level of okay, what story is being told? And why is that? And what is that reflective of? And so in starting that conversation, I think we knowingly but a little bit unknowingly as well started a conversation about the industry as well. We've had producers come on the show we, as things topically came up within the industry, we would speak about that. So we the day that Heather shields joined us was the day that we were talking about Scott Rudin. And we were talking about Karen Alico leaving long Rouge. And yeah, so I, I hope to bring about a conversation and I hope to bring about an understanding for people going into this or who are consumers of this, of the needed changes and the gaps from where we are to where we should be.
14:19
And I also think that because we stay a comedy, a comedy podcast, not by intention, but by nature of me and Cassidy's friendship. I think that what I hope that we contribute to that conversation is that it doesn't have to be like an egocentric conversation. It can just be a conversation, the way conversations happen. You can make little jokes in between, like, it can be reformations important and it's big and it's going to cause some like personal stake in the matter to get in the way, you know, but we can all just vibe through it together. That's what I would like for it. Spire.
15:01
I love that. I love that. So what are the Okay, so let's talk about some of the subject matter within your podcast. What are the recurring themes that you've noticed that made you want to even start a podcast that calls out musicals? On their bullshit? As you as you call it?
15:23
Yeah, well, it first started with some of these golden age shows were just trashed that I was watching like, surely I texted Have you been like this can die like, this is a bad show. Why? What were we? Oh, if she loves me, I have. Oh, yeah. The new production? What was that? All this star power in it? What kind of story was that? Okay, but respectfully,
15:44
respectfully, the set is the cutest set I've ever seen in my entire life, the way that show moves, is so freaking cool. And this, I think this is actually literally the conversation we had before we opened the podcast.
16:00
It was really just like, what do we do with some of these old shows? How do we? What is their value today? And what is their cost today? And especially in we see you white American theatre, and black theatre united, emerging? How can we evolve these stories if they are still inherently valuable and equitable, to include more people and be more accessible? Yeah,
16:26
yeah. I mean, if you looked at she loves me that last revival, do you think that show would be produced the same way today? And that was just like, for you? It was
16:36
recently, it was an all white cast, right?
16:39
And was it post me too,
16:42
it was post me too. Mm hmm. And it was to me, but there was no person of colour in the principal players that I can recall the may have been a person of colour in the ensemble.
16:56
Truly a maybe there too. And then,
16:59
like, another big trope that I've noticed that's that's particularly disheartening is that a lot of the diversity that is seen as like seen in the cast, but is not reflected in the creative team created the ship, show either. Or, like, reflected in the creative team, the production team within like, the theatre companies themselves? So it's, it's, there have been moments on this podcast where I've been like, actually, we have to slow down because I'm learning too much that information at one time. Person like, like it, I can't even you know, it's me. Yeah, like, wow, I see myself and I only see myself. And that is, I mean, it makes it makes the diversity feel a little performative sometimes, you know?
17:46
Well, I mean, I do think that I, like I said, I don't think that those shows would be produced the same way today at post pandemic. But then you do look at something like The Music Man, however, yeah. However, the ensemble is much more diverse. It's just the, you know, I don't understand why the principles
18:07
are. I don't understand why the show's back on Broadway. But one of the things Abby and I ran into around this too, is we for first February, on the pod, were like, Okay, how are we going to do black history? On this podcast? Are we going to do a month full of like, black musicals? And we went back and forth, because half of most of them are not written by black authors. So then it was that quite okay, do we want to do we want to use this story, but the story was told by a white person, can we, and we ended up doing the musical passing strange, which was great and very cool. And not something I had given much light to before. But you run, especially when you are presenting publicly to. And we do have listeners who and this always surprises me, but enjoy us enough to have not seen the show we're talking about and still listen always shocks me. Love those guys. Yeah, decisions around that are challenging. When you're trying to speak about moving an industry forward that isn't there yet. Yeah. Yeah.
19:13
But would we be able to have these conversations if those things didn't exist? Right. It's such an interesting, like, I think about, you know, she loves me presents an issue. Right, it presents several issues. Our history, it's that yeah, that's why people like a lot of these shows is nostalgia, right? Like music man, because everyone did it in high school. Yeah, you know, so there's an estado related to it. But But you're right. I think that you know, when you in my experience of doing musicals, which we talked about on on my episode of your podcast, you know, I did a musical that was you know, subject matter huge part of the subject was slavery, and they were trying to make slavery a secondary storyline. Slavery can never be a secondary storyline in any piece it can never be is always going to be the thing that people are going to leave with. And so and that was an entire show written by white people and directed and produced by white people. And it's just always an interesting thing to sort of witness. But so I do think that you know, you are mentioning and calling out something that's interesting to me that I think that needs to be called out and especially by young people, because they're going to be the future ticket buyers. They're the the current ticket buyers, they're the people who are going to be producing and creating theatre and so creating consciousness around and I think is super important. Yeah,
20:38
I think when we tell people that are Thank you firstly, I think when we tell people that our pilot is the King and I they tend to understand the vibe of the show
20:51
perfect example of truly no one on the creative team actually reflected the diversity written into the show that time truly written into the
20:59
show. Have you done flower drum song?
21:01
No, no, it's on the list. Yeah, I haven't seen it in its entirety truth.
21:06
Have you done Pacific overtures? No. Awesome. You should do like American moms like reach out South Pacific or Asian History Month or maybe like in could you could cover those? Those are That's That's fascinating. Okay, but I'm really curious because I have strong opinions about dear Evan Hanson. So what was your stance on that? I haven't listened to that episode.
21:30
Our episode title was waving through a weak book. And I think that's it truthfully, I think the movie did a good job of trying to repair that and figure that out. They did. Better. I I've been comparing the movie to cyber bully on ABC. If anyone grew up with that, like for home movie. It was like they really tried to talk about the issues and really missed the mark. And I kind of feel similarly with dear Evan Hanson.
21:58
Yeah, there was just like actually no conclusion to that show. He just kind of got away with it. It was actually more of a spy musical in my opinion. He like ran a heist and then never got caught. I don't. Yeah, it's Evan Hanson. Yeah. Evan Hanson, the anxious agent, you know, like, yeah,
22:19
I didn't like the like, generalised anxiety disorder performance. I, I, I understood it. I feel like it verged on this, like his he neurodivergent line, instead of claiming it or saying that outright, they just gave him a bunch of visible tics, which I had a problem with.
22:41
Yeah, I have a brother who's on the spectrum. And I had a real issue with that, too, because you're trying to make that like a non subject matter within this piece of you, no matter the budget. It's not under. Yeah, but like it being so prevalent that this guy has some issue, but you're not actually talking about it. But then he has all these other issues that no one's talking about, too. So it's very interesting. It was a very frustrating show, because I felt like everyone was sort of a villain, and I didn't know who to root for. Yeah, and then I saw Oh, yeah, yeah, no, go ahead. That's it.
23:17
I also do acknowledge that when I saw it at 16, as much as I wrote it now, when I saw it at 16, I cried from the hallway, I left the theatre to my hotel, so
23:27
And But why, but what was it about it at that time? Did you feel seen? Did you feel like what was it about the piece at the time at 16?
23:35
Ah, I can't tell you I just remember crying. I don't really remember why I was crying at all. But, I mean, art is multifaceted. You know, I don't know, like,
23:45
well, and I think that's ultimately the the thing that I want to take away from even anyone who's listening to this, who maybe isn't a theatre person is like, I've never I don't know, dear Evan Hanson. Is that art should create conversation. Yeah, that's Yeah. You know, like, the theatre shouldn't end at the curtain call. Right? It's it you're taking it home with you're crying on the way home, but you're processing it, it does something that I didn't get in. So when people were like, Oh, I felt like the finale. I'm like, No, but the fact that we're having a conversation about the piece is what makes it a piece. That's what makes it art.
24:23
Yeah. And I think what emphasises the communal aspects of art as well in those conversations, because we're not as audience members at least on Broadway. It is less of a communal experience sitting in those seats and maybe it feels like it but it's not we are all here together. It's we shuffled in and a lot of us came in late and here's my coat. So I think being able to sit and talk about these pieces old or new and really unpack that together. It's just a gift is a gift in his level of consciousness, which is one of the things I wanted to promote about the pod
24:59
in your experience. So we're kind of going all over the place and talking about different pieces that have been produced at a high commercial level. But you're now working for Cassidy, you're working for a nonprofit theatre, correct? Yes. So when you're our Are you experiencing or noticing anything different in the development of theatre in a nonprofit, regional space? That is maybe educating your opinion or your viewpoint on seeing commercial theatre being produced?
25:36
Yes, and no, because they have a Broadway house and two off Broadway houses. So ticketing and sales and big stars in the show is still a very important part of what they do i i will say what is different is I think here artistic director really likes the pieces she chooses it is we are the only theatre devoted to producing plays only by living American playwrights, which promotes a lot of new work and younger writers in there and more diverse voices, which I really appreciate and have been able to see, I don't think that's all talk, which I you know, as I've learned my buzzwords, I've learned that other people have learned them and can use them very freely without ever acting upon them. And I don't think that's the case here, which is really great. But I still, it just still takes so much money to do this. And I have a hard time viewing that from an accessibility lens that we want to put on this play about equity and it's gonna cost $13 million. Hmm. Yeah. And that's how it that's the average price of a Broadway musical, I believe is 13 million. I'm sure a play is a little less do not cite it is
26:49
no. I've always heard 14 million for musical and then around 8 million for play.
26:56
Yeah, that still blows my mind. Here.
26:59
Yeah. It's, it's it, you know, it is, you know, there's unions, it's like, you know, paying people at a reasonably livable wage in New York City. You know, there's all of those things that factor in,
27:16
yeah, some things need to happen. And some things take money. And I have a hard time understanding that all the time. But just Yeah, I feel like the reason I found my way into what I love is a lot of privilege, and having a really sweet father, who also loved these things and toted me around to all of them. But that access is such a privilege. And I was able to find that at five and you said you found your way into performing very young as well. And I am always at a loss for how we can make that better, because then you theatre does not have to be your thing. I'm not saying it does. But it's a lot easier to say that's not for me, that's really weird. I'm not into it, when your level of exposure to it. It's just not, it's not integrated. It's not in your classroom, it's on your school system. It's not in your day to day life. And I being in a theatre and theatre Education and Communities master student, that is super important to me in how we make this more accessible. I believe that statistic is if like a student who has no interaction with the arts by the third grade, they're really not good. Like if they don't pick up an instrument or go to a dance class or go to a theatre class by then the odds of it sticking are
28:32
just plummets. Really.
28:35
And that's it. That's 9/3 grade. You know, that's early childhood education, like arts integration matters. From the earliest point onward. And I I don't think enough people care about that, truthfully. Yeah, a lot of
28:50
it could be what about for you? So you do a lot of technical design, you have that side of data experience? What do you notice from the sort of behind the scenes, if you will, part of the industry that you would like to see change and you're hoping maybe your podcasts and just your visibility might shift,
29:12
less men? Ah, I say that with all the respect in the world to the men that I've worked with the men who have taught me everything I know about because predominantly, my experience is as a as a director was where I want to come from first. And then I did actually work as a scenic painter for a little while. But especially behind the scenes, it's a lot of men a lot, a lot a lot of like white men. True to it's just, it's it doesn't have to be but it's like the place in the industry that I feel like the boys club still exists. I don't know if it necessarily exists in. In the producing world. I haven't spent a lot of time working in it, but it just It's so it's a, it's aggressive, it's weirdly competitive in certain ways. And every time I work with like women or queer people, it's it's it's so much more collaborative, and how it gets to come together. It typically, typically is how I have experienced it. But yeah, I just feel like I work. I don't know, it's just always so weird to me to work on these stories that are like promoting love and accepting everybody and celebrating who you are letting your freak flag fly, if you will. And like, then I, I, I, like the word like the B word is still thrown around in the workplace. I'm like, what is the what's like, what's going on here? I don't understand. What is this line? Or what's happening? And it's just, it's cognitive dissonance at its finest.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
